The Eckley Oral History Project

A. Varesano interviewing Joe Sulkusky ( and Mrs. S.)

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was white, and you could see him, no matter where he was, runnin' around, you could see him. That's how I used to watch. I'd get up somewhere where it was a little higher, and I would keep on lookin' where the hell he is. And I shot a lot of rabbits around here. Yeah, I used to shoot the hell out of 'em, down there. He was a good dog for that.

AV: What happened to him?

JS: I shot him.

AV: You shot him?

JS: You know, my son-in-law, he got a dog down in Jersey. And he come up here when he was just about that big. And I looked at the dog, and I says, what breed is that? Oh, he said, that's, he's a good huntin' dog, he says, gonna be something like a beagle, you know. And, all right, uhh-uh, I says, that's gonna be a Teddy Bear dog, I says: You know, that son of a gun has paws now, I says, bigger than a big dog, I said. They're thick and strong as hell! That's gonna be a mighty powerful dog, I says. It was a black one. So, it wasn't long after, when the dog grew up a bit already, he brought him up her for me. Well, he brought him up for me, and I had him here. he had all the tags on him, you know, and everything, and he had a collar and a chain and everything. I hooked him down there. I had Whitey dwon there then, too. I hooked him down there, Well, he could break a, either the strap would go, or the chain would go, ot the pen would come with him, one of the three would have to happen. And you know what he was, he was a Water Retriever, that's what he was. So, Steven was up here, and his daddy. they come up, and, ha ha we were goin' out for a walk. So Steven left Whitey out. And I says to him what the hell did you leave him out for, I says. That one'll go wild, I says, he'll go crazy there. So finally, he started to jump around and divin' up in the air and everything, and yet his daddy says to him, he says, you better go and loosen that one, now because he says he's gonna choke himself or break somethin' or somethin' is gonna happen, he says. So, he's goes back and try to loosen him, he couldn't. He wouldn't give him no slack, and he wasn't strong enough for him. So I go back, and I loosen him. So, he come with us, when we got down here a piece-way, these caves down here, and they were strippin' below that, away back further. Now it's all bull-dozed around there, that's all covered up there. So, there were water in it, lots of water. And he smelt that water,from away up here. And he goes like a bullet, down he goes, and Steven hollered at him, he thought he was runnin' away. I said Let him go. I says. Any dog that don't know his master, or don't know how to find him, I says. he's no good to you. I says, a dog has to know his master and where to find him, and everything. So, we're goin' down, goin' down, and when we come to that place, he's swimmin' like hell in the damn water in the strippin'. I said, there he is. Hell, did that kid have the fun with him then. He would throw sticks in,and what and that, and he would dive in and go and grab the stick and bring it out and lay it down by his feet. I said, there you are, I said, that dog is for a hunter that hunts wild geese you know, or wild ducks, or waterfowl. I says, he's all right. He'll bring everyone out for him that he shoots on the water. I said, that's all. He's no good for me, I says, I ain't got no place to hunt duck or geese. Only in the fall or in the spring when they're flyin' across. Generally they fly across, they come from this section, and they go out this way. And ducks, well, one time there were ducks hero, and now I don't see a duck for--the last time I seen ducks here, when Steven and Joe, the family was up, and down below down there, we were down lookin' for mushrooms or somethin' and we took Whitey with us, and he got runnin' around, and first thing you know he seen the mother duck-- Quack, quack, you know, and she starts swimmin'--about twelve little ducks,

A. Varesano interviewing Joe Sulkusky (and Mrs. S.)

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and he was a hunter, too, he used to keep hounds, bird dogs and rabbit dogs, and stuff. And there was a man come in there, and he wanted some kind of a stuff. And Sightsinger says--he knew what it was, you know---and Sightsinger says, What do you want it for? He said, I want to give it to my dog. He says, For what? Well, he says, I want to give it to him that he wouldn't take nothin' off of nobody, you know--suppose somebody would want to poison him, or somthing, with some kind of food or something, that he wouldn't take it. And Sightsinger says to him, Do you think anything of that dog? Yeah! Well, what do you want to him that stuff for? He said, You know, he's gonna be a mighty sick dog, and he's bound to die. I wouldn't give that, he says, for any money, to the dog, if I cared for the dog.

AV: What kind of stuff was it?

JS: So--it's some kind of medicine that they had in the drug store--So finally, they got talkin' there, and Sightsinger says, well, he says how old he was and how long he is huntin' and all, and he says I handled dogs right along. And he says, You know what I give my dogs? What I eat, he gets from the table the same. And he says, Don't be buyin' no stuff and givin' the dog, he says. That's no good. Give them the stuff you eat, and you'll have no trouble with your dog. Now, I had a rabbit dog, Prince, that son of a gun was I guess about eighteen, pretty close to twenty years old, and you know what I would do? I would stack him up agin the best rabbit dog there is around. Shy--he lived in this house below where Bertha is--and he got a pedigreed Beagle, they're supposed to be good, they got the papers and everything with it and all. We went out huntin', and by God, you know, my dog chased ten rabbits, his dog didn't even start one. And his dog wouldn't even go to help mine out. I says, Well. Shy, I says, there's your pedigreed dog! You take a dog and you let him know what you want, and you'll see. Now, take dogs, there's lots of 'em gun shy, you know. If you shoot, he'll run and he'll hide, and he's afraid. Or, thunder, you'd see him run in the house, under the stove or anywhere, they're afraid. Well, I don't know about thunder, if I could break him, but gun shy, shootin', I can. I can. I had already gun shy dogs, and I broke them all.

AV: How?

JS: Just, when you see like that, you know, he's afraid, --he's that afraid that he don't know what to do,--just go throw a coat or something over 'em. Darken it for them. And then let'em that way for a little while. Then take the coat off, and pet him up, and call him along. Come on, What the hell's the maater--talk to him, tell him what the hell you afraid of? Don't be afraid. And shoot! You know. See what he is gonna do. Do that a couple of times. And that's all. They give me a dog, a black one, Nigger, they called him. A guy owed me a dog, and he give me--it was after the huntin' season--it was a nice-lookin' dog and all, and by God, when he give him to me, I used to go down there for mushrooms and all and take him along--oh, he'd chase like hell. So, that was alright. So, finally, I kept goin' all summer, you know, out. And training season come in, I took him out. Well then hunting season come, I took him out. The guys started to ask me, How's the dog doin'? Good! And they'd laugh, you know. I said, What the hell you laughin' about? And I said, Listen, that dog. I says, I'll bet you if the owner would see that dog, what he does now, I said, I bet he would pay any money to get him back! They said, Go on, what the hell, are you kiddin'? No! Oh, what the hell, that dog is gun shy. I said He is? What, like hell, I said, come on huntin' with us. I said, you'll see if he is gun shy. Same way, ownin' a dog that, you don't want him to chase deer, you know, when you are huntin' rabbits and stuff, and they'll get on a deer and away they go. Well, some dogs, he won't come back. He's one. That's the end of it. Now

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there's guys pay nice price for dogs that. they go out hunlin' and they'll lose their dogs. They go off on a deer and they don't come back. Now, I could train any hound that I knew, you know. Of course, a strange one, where I had him a day or so, he's not used to you, so. But I used to go with my dogs, lots of 'em. Steve had one, that son of a gun used to chase deer like a-hell. Well then, mine butted in. I just caught him onct. And he's comin' down on the trail, alter the deer and after Steve's dog, and I happened to catch him once. I said, what the hell are you doin'? I said, What do you think you're doin'? I says , Don't you dare to chase those deer. I said. If you want to chase, chase rabbits, go ahead all day. I said, Don't chase deer. I said, I'll understand it. I left him go--and he go for the trail back, you know. I grab him, you know, and I gave him a slap, just on the nose, you know. He look at me, you know, and I tell him again, Don't you chase it. I left him go, he go again. And I let him the third time, I say now you're not gonna chase no deer, and that's all's to it! So I took him and I give him one slap on one side, one on another side. And I took him where the deer print was, and I stuck his nose there, and I says Don't you dare to chase the deer. That did it! The dog never chased another deer! Honest to God, that's true!

AV: That's great! That's great!

JS: Now, this Prince that I had last [that I hunted with?], he started. He started on a deor, too. Oh, he got away with Andrew Caydosh's dog, he had one that used to chase the deer like the devil. So he got on with him couple of times. So then I didn't get a chance to get him. So, finally once I got a chance, and I give him a good lecture. Well, he knew I meant somethin'. Another time we went cut huntin' and a whole bunch of deer jumped up in front of us. And he up and he made a bark, you know. I hollered at him. He listened to me, he turned around and looked at me. I said, Don't you dare! And, by God, that dog didn't go! So, I says Come here! And he come over to me, and I pet him up, and I says Don't you dare to chase deer. Honest to God, that doy didn't chase deer! He wouldn't, He watched 'em. They're a funny little thing! But they're a good friend, I'll tell you, they're a good friend. You know, I shot that Whitey. I could cry for him. I still think of him today. The kind of friend he was to you, oh! I shot him because he used to break, that black one used to break all the chains and collars and everything. I got tired of buyin' 'em. You couldn't buy a cheap one, because that was nothin' for him. buy a good one, and hell, you had to go and get another one next week. He was tearin' the chains, and I was afraid that he used to get out and he'd run around. He'd come back, you know, but he'd run around Gera's. this Nicky Gera brought him up one day, he said Is this your dog? Well, I says Yeah, I says. Where the hell was he? He said He come down last my place, and I thought I seen that dog, he says, that it was yours. I say Yeah, that's the one Mike brought up from Jersey. He said What the hell kind of dog is it? Oh Jesus, don't tell me, I says. Then I found out that he was a water retriever. So I says, Well, you're gonna be runnin' around and you're so big--he was like a calf. Black, about that high, and about that long, a big dog. So I says To hell with you. And at the same time. Gaffney's gave me a beagle dog, you know, a rabbit dog. So I thought to myself, Well- I didn't like to tell hike that I shot him, because I din't want to hold him, and he couldn't keep him down there, because he got complaints. In the city you can't keep a dog if he don't keep quiet. And I guess he was a-barkin' there, so Mike had to get rid of him. So, I shot that one. And Miko says where's the dog. I says, Oh, they take a deer over the mountain and they never come back! But that wasn't so. I

A. Varesano interviewing Joe Sulkusky (and hrs. S.)

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shot the thing. Yeah. I had lots of experiences with dogs and everything.

AV: Yes, you have. You have. My goodness. Could you tell me some ghost stories?

JS: Yeah.... So. up on this mountain there's a bear. And right on top of Sandy Hill, where they go down the hill, down in below there's lot of grape vines are down in there. And I guess they come, mostly in the fall you'll see them, when the grapes are ripe. They go down and eat them grapes I guess down there. Then, there's a lot of bees down in around there because of those grapes. And they are honey bees, you know. And the bear, I guess they know where the honey is, and they get the honey, too, down there. Oh, there's a lot of grape vines down there. Terrible lots. And they're nice grapes. Some of them they got, you can't buy a blue grape as big as they are down in there.

AV: big ones, huh!

JS: Yeah. And they're ripe, and they come on top of the hill before you start to go down. We used to have a path to go down, right down into the swamp, down in the hollow there. You'd walk right straight down, it'd take you right into the grape vines.

AV: Did you ever shoot a bear?

JS: No. I never had the thought. Hunt a deer, but not bear. Well, this one here, me and Jack and my brother were goin' to Freehand, it was right along dinner time. And right when you come on top of the hill, there's an old log road comin' out, right on the top. I look in this log road, and I seen this damn thing comin' out to the road. And I said to Jack, Stop! Stop! Stop! Well, he didn't know, you know, what's the matter, because nobody ahead or anything. And I said Stop!!! So he started to stop walkin' and he said what's the matter? I said, back up! back up!--because we passed that log road there. So he says Why? Just back up! So we's backin' up, you know, backin' up. When we come there, the road comin' out here, and that goddam bear was like from here to the wall.

AV: Oh, boy!

JS: Oh, was he a nice bear, I'm tellin' you. Shiny, shiny and black. So, he stopped, you know, and we come back, you know, and he stopped there, and we're lookin' at him. And he gets up on his two feet, you know, just like you see a picture sometimes, a teddy bear. And there he was, standin' forth. And we were standing, watchin' each other. And my brother says, Honest to God, he says, if we weren't with you, you would be tellin' them that a bear was there, you seen a bear like that, they'd say, Now there goes another ghost story! I said, now there you are! So that's true. Then, on the top of the hill, this here Clifford Falatko, you know Clifford? Well, his son, he come runnin' over here to tell Bertha, he says he seen two bears right up off the hillside, he looked down and there are two bears there, cubs, in there. And they were stayin' around there. And this time the bear that crossed that road, he robbed a guy's honey. He had bee hives, you know, and he robbed the honey on them! That bear that went across. And he had two cubs with him, but we didn't see the cubs, only the old one. They're down in there, that's true. That time when Petey come here, remember? He said, You want to go for a ride? He said I lost my dogs, he says, they chased n deer over the hill there and they didn't come back, three days already. So he says, How about, if you're not doin' anythin', how about comin' out for a ride? So we go down around Sandy Valley, maybe they're down there somewhere. He says, if i holler or whistle, and they hear me, they'll come. So we went down there, and we looked around different.

A. Varesano interviewing Joe Sulkusky ( and Mrs. S.)

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places, different roads we took and all. So, we were comin' back, and there's a little row of houses goin' up towards Sandy Run be said, let's walk this way. And there was a lady come out--and they have a pump outside yet now, there, for water--she was takin' water, and ho says, Wait, I'll go over and ask this lady. So he went over and he asked her, Eid they see any stray dogs around? And she says, Yeah, she says, there was a stray dog here last night come in, and I locked him up. And, she says, her husband come home and told me, Leave him go, he says, because unless you put an ad in the paper, then hold him, but if you don't, he says, let him go, because if somebody come lookin' around and you find have the dog locked up and no ad in the paper, he says, they'll make you pay for it. So she says, It was a hound, out it was a female. My husband, when he come home, let the dog go, and he told me Leave him go. And his dogs were chasing up over this hill over up towards Eckley here, and she says, Come on, and have supper. And he says, No, don't bother, I won't wash and I won't have supper, he says, I'll go and get the dogs and then I'll have supper after I come back. And he went up to get the dogs. When he come up close to the hill that comes up this way, there was a big goddarn bear! So he says, I looked at him, he says, I come up pret' near close to 'im. He says I looked at him and the bear looked at me, he says, I turned around, he says, I didn't stop 'till I landed into the house, he says. I left the dogs and all there, he says.

AV: Ha ha ha ha ha!

JS: But they won't hurt you.

AV: What, bears?

JS: No. They won't hurt you it you don'y hurt them, or disturb them. Or else, if somebody else wounded them or disturbed them, you know, somethin' too bad, then if they meet you they think that you're gonna do the same thing. They might go for you then. But otherwise.....

MS: Won't Helen be worried where you are?

AV: She knows. I left her a note.

JS: Otherwise they won't touch you.

AV: Do you remember any ghost stories?

JS: Oh, I used to know lots of them long time ago. Now I forgot 'em all!

AV: Tell me about the Mamona. What's that?

JS: (chuckles) Mamona! That's like the witchcraft!

AV: Yeah? What is it?

JS: Yeah! I used to know lot of stories one time. Then I Didn't say them or didn't think of them. I forgot lots of things. If I get a start once on them, then I get goin'.

AV: How do you get a start on some of those?

JS: Ha ha! Somebody else, you know, will say one, then you get on to one....

AV: Oh.

JS: Then you get on to some of yours.

AV: You know, I was talkin' to hrs. Zosak the other day, and she was saying about this Mamona, how it's supposed to be like when you're walking in the woods, picking huckleberries, and suddenly it seems that your mind is twisted around, and when you're going back into the woods, you think you're going back home, and you're actually walking farther into the woods....

JS: You just circle then. You keep on circlin' around, mostly. Well, hell, this here Annie Maloney, well, she got lost on was it, the other day!

AV: Yeah. It was Monday, or something.

JS: And she landed somewhere out.....

MS: [Illegible?]

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JS: Huh?

MS:

AV: That place?

JS: That's a far piece, from into, And she landed there, she got balled up.

AV: Do you think that was the Mamona?

JS: Yeah, that, that...

MS: She was out pickin' berries with and them.

AV: Yeah.

MS: And, yeah, they were hollerin' for her and all, but she didn't hear them or what. And she just finally kept walkin', walkin', lookin' for them, where they are. and here where she landed, way in in there, and [invincible]

JS: Well, it was all right she landed somewhere like that. Suppose she wouldn't of hit that place.

AV: Yeah.

JS: And she would be keepin' on goin'.

MS: And then she called, they asked. the guy asked her where she is from and all, and she said that she is from Eckley. Call up. So they called, come up and picked her up there.

JS: Well, hell, take Steve's brother--you know Annie--well, the two of them is dead, Steve's dead, and Joe, Crow they used to call his pickname, Crow--well, I seen him, me and Steve went out for berries, that did work, and we went down towards the Number Three, down by the third spring down there. And there is a ridge on this side and a ridge on this side, and there's a pretty big hollow there. And we were pickin' berrries, you know--I had the two buckets full already--and I started pickin' a can. And I walked out a little bit to see how the berries are runni', are they runnin' out that way more yet, and Steve was pickin' and I beat him out a little, so I said I'm goin' out to see how far those berries are runnin'. I walked, not too far ahead, and I look up ahead and I see a guy come from up above and go down in this hollow, then he disappears, I don't see him. And then pretty soon i see him comin' around back up, and he goes up again from where he come, you know. Well, I thought, Maybe he has buckets and he has them up on a stone, you know, and he is pickin' berries down below in a can and he goes up and dumps them in the bucket. But I seen him go that way about three or four times. And I thought, what the hell, he can't pick a can Full of berries that quick. So I hollered at Steve. I says, Steve! Come here! What's the matter? Well, just come here once. He come over and he says What now. I said, I seen this guy. I says, and he goes up there and then he goes back down in the hollow and he comes around and he goes up back again now. And Steve is lookin', lookin', what the hell is he doin'? Well, I said, now Steve. I am lookin' at that quite a while, I said. He made about four trips or five, I said, since I called you. So he went up again, you know, and Steve was lookin'--but Steve didn't recognize him, you know. So then he went down again and he comes around back up again, and we moved up a little more. And he come up again, you know, and I looked and I says, Steve, that looks like your Crow! Ahhhh, what the hell would he be doin' here? Well, just what we're doin', I guess. So, he's lookin', lookin'--BeGod, he says, it does look somethin' like him. I said, I'll betcha that's your Crow. So we started hollerin' at him, you know, callin' him. He didn't pay no attention, until he cursed him. When he cursed him, that guy stand in his tracks, right there. So he looks again, he says, By God, he says. I'll betcha that's him. So he walks down to him. He was down to him, you know, and his brother starts cryin', you know, cryin' like hell, Steve says, what's the matter, he

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said. What the hell are you doin' here? For huckleberries. Where is your huckleberries? He said, I threw them away. He had two cans of these five-quarters or six quarters. and a smaller three-quarter, I guess. He says, I was comin' home, he says, and I don't know, he says, I am comin' around and I can't get no place, he says. He wanted to get down to the center railroad track and he couldn't get there, so he kept on twistin'. Now if he had of go left, he would have hit the center railroad. If he woulda went right, and kept on goin' over this next little knoll, right below down there is the center railroad, too, because it comes down the third spring this way and she makes a big circle and goes back that way. Two ways he could have hit the center railroad. Then up above there is an old log road--they used to haul lumber for the timberyard, when the mines was goin'--they used to call it the jedda [hoyt?]. So he could have gone on that if he would have went up just about, well I would say, oh I don't know if it was a hundred yards, maybe fifty yards, from where he was. The old log road would have took him right out home over to Number Eight here. He couldn't hit no place. He was just walkin' that circle. And he thought he was goin' all one way. And he was makin' that big ring all around. That's what they call the Mamona. The Mamona gets you. They say there is some kind of a weed or some kind of plant in the brush, too, if you rub, or got in that, or anything, that'll get you.

AV: Yeah?

JS: Yeah?

AV: Do you know what they call that plant?

JS: Yeah!

AV: What do they call it?

JS: You know, I'll tell ya, one time they had a lodge--oh, that lodge is still goin', up in this church up here. The.....Lodge. And the officers, three of them, alter a meeting up here they went up to Freeland, you know....

MS: She don't mean that. She means that what did you used to call those...

JS: The what?

MS: What do you call them things?

JS: Them what?

MS: That, what you're, the Mamona, what you're...

JS: Mamona! Ha Ha!

AV: The weeds!

JS: The weeds!

AV; Yeah.

JS: Well, we don't know what kind they are. Nobody knows. But they say that there is a weed like that, or some kind of bush or weed or something, you rub again' it, or pass, you know, goin' through, maybe you rub it or maybe you push it on the side or something, that you lose your mind and you keep on circling around. So, these three men, they went ot Freeland to bank the money that they had collected--because it was a pretty big lodge one time--and then do their business in the bank and stuff. And, comin' home, it was dark. Well, then there weren't transportation, like now, you know. Maybe they had a drink or two, you know, on the way comin'! And when they got home, up where Emil Gera is livin', when they come up on that side up there, they didn't know where the hell they were. They kept on goin'. One of them went down Porter Swamp, that's away back that way.....huh?

MS: She was for huckleberries...

JS: Huh?

MS: Angie was for huckleberries, with Bruno....

AV: I know where Porter Swamp is, yes.

JS: Well, there was a dam down there, and they used to pump the water up here from

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there, and they had pumps down there, pump house. And there's a man workin' there, you know. Old Baron.

MS: And Old Micklaus.

JS: Yeah, and old Micklaus. Micklaus, where the boys are slayin' now, in that house. Well, his father. He was only a small man. And they were pump-runners down there. So finally, these men, one found himself down there in the morning, other one up home in his own home, under the tub in the shanty and the other one found himself up at Number One up here, in that engine house. So that they didn't know where they were. They come that far, they didn't know where they were.

AV: Goodness.

JS: That Mamona got them!

AV: Yeah.

JS: Well, this here Patty Gallagher's sister, down at Number Three--down at that hollow where Joe was circling--but she was lost down there and she was smart enough, but she was there all night. She couldn't get nowhere, so she laid down someplace along the center railroad then after, around there. And then they went a lookin' for her, see, and they found her there. Yep, she was out all night! Oh, yes, them things happen.

AV: Did it happen to you?

JS: No. Not so far1

AV: You said before, that was like witchcraft. Were there witches around here?

JS: Oh, I guess they are! Maybe they are yet, some witches!

AV: Do you think?

JS: Sure! They used to call them [Goonsfn.?]

AV: Yeah? What did they used to do? What did they say they did?

JS: Well, they could witch you, or anything, yeah, they could witch you.

AV: With what?

JS: Oh, just, they have a way, they can put a curse on you or anything like that they can witch.

AV: Did you ever hear of some, here?

JS: (he doesn't appear to have heard the question). No, yeah.

AV: Mrs. Zosak says that she thinks there might have been one around that stopped her cow from making milk.

JS: Oh, yes, yep, yep, yep, yep. That happened in this town, I know.

AV: Did it?

JS: Oh yes. But a long time, when the people had cows, you know. Somebody had a grudge again' another party, you know, and they couldn't, didn't know what the hell to do but witchcraft the cow that she wouldn't give any milk. Oh, yeah, I hear that there were lots, a couple of them.

AV: How do you protect against it?

JS: Well, I don't know how the hell they do it, but they can do it. But I seen, down here in Number Four, there used to be...

MS: Maybe you can tell more stories some other day.

JS: Heh! We used to be, down at Number Four there, cows used to go down, and the gosh dang cows, there was one especially used to come home dry, always milked out, you know. And nobody knew, they thought somebody was milking that cow. Tat she would stand for them, and they used to go and milk her, you know. And it wasn't, wasn't nobody milkin' her but a snake. Milk snake. Big milk snake.

AV: What are they, now?

JS: So I got that baby? Up here above that railroad, where the rocks start. And I was up there for berries or something, and I got it.

AV: What do they look like?

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Tape 30-2

1030

JS: They're, they got white stripes over them and brown ones. just like you put garters on the son of a gun, all over. Oh, but they're big. That'n was fourteen feet long!

AV: Wow!

JS: And I hit him with rocks--there are a lot of rocks, you know, they used to blast rocks that they used to make these bridges and stuff from, up there, and there are lots of pieces that you just grab, and they're sharp--and I give him one with a rock, and I cut him. You oughta see the milk comin' out of him!

MS: You talk too loud, the neighbors are asleep.

AV: Wow!

JS: Huh?

Ms: You talk too loud, the neighbors are sleepin'.

JS: The what?

MS: You talk too loud, the....

JS: Oh, talk too loudly!

AV: No!

JS: So, when I killed him, you know, I brought him up here---Marshliks lived in that house. on the corner. and they were right on the alley, there were big rocks used to go out, you could go under them, right over to the cave, they're caved in now, down, but then we used to sit under them rocks. If it rained, you could sit there, you wouldn't get wet--I brought him up there, and they measured the darn snake. That's how long, fourteen feet long.

AV: And they suck the milk from the cow?

JS: Yeah. And the cow will stand for them. A black one will suck a cow, too, if he gets a chance. They'll wrap around the leg, all the way up, and then the cow will stand and they'll keep on suckin', like it's pup.

AV: And the only way to get rid of them is to kill them off?

JS: Yeah, get rid of them, yeah. They know how to get it.

AV: How do you witch a cow so that it doesn't give milk?

JS: How do you miss it?

AV: No, how do you witch a cow....

JS: Oh, ha ha! If I knew, then I would know how to do it. I don't know! Yeah, there's witchcraft.

AV: I heard like they have the Evil Eye, like they say, what do they call it, Zohcha? What is that?

JS: Ha ha! I don't know! Did Mrs. Zosak told you?

AV: Well, Mrs. Timko.

JS: Timko?

AV: Yeah.

JS: Well, you get a lot of them stories, from a lot of different people. Oh, before, there used to be all kinds of old-time, European people, and they used to come from Europe, you know. A lot more. And they used to know lots of this stuff. Teachin' about witchcraft and stuff.

(Recording of Sulkusky's clock chiming. beautiful:)

JS: What time is that?

MS: Eleven o'clock.

AV: Oh, boy! Already? Oh, my goodness? Time for me to go, I guess!

MS: Come down here some other time, Angie.

AV: Oh!....

1090

A. Varesano interviewing Mary Sulkusky

1

8/23/72

Tape 29-1

AV: Do you remember any bake over in this town at all

MS: Well yes I remember a bake oven once when I had a neighbor, when a neighbor was here, used to have in the back

AV: Which neighbor was that

MS: Mrs. she's dead already though, but her son still liven and I think he lives in

AV: This was on Back Street

MS: That was on Back Street, we lived together with Helen Fedorha, across the street Helen and her mother, and I was the neighbor across, and she, Machelle lived next door to us

AV: Where did they have this bake oven

MS: In the back, in the back of their, like summer shack, summer kitchen

AV: Just right in back of it

MS: Right in the back of it

AV: How far way from it, naybe

MS: Well it wasn't so far but it was quite a bit of distance, take care of it, you know, going back and forth doin' the bakin'

AV: It was maybe ten feet away from the back of the shanty

Ms: Oh it was about ten feet

AV: How big was it, what did it look like

Ms: It looked like, made like, like bricks, out of bricks, and there you know it was, like in and they used to take the bread and put it in that oven

AV: How tall was it about

Ms: Oh it was, I guess, quite a bit as tall as that or taller then that, for the bread to rise and to bake in it

AV: Would you say five feet tall

MS: Oh it would be about that